By: Annie Atwater
(cross posted at The F Bomb.org)
Recently I spoke with the grandfather of a friend of mine after a basketball game. The game had just ended, and we were standing around, waiting for the team to emerge from the locker room, making the usual sort of losing team whiny small talk that one might expect, when a cheerleader walked by. We had seen her all night, selling raffle tickets, flirting with the guys’ team, doing her cheer thing, but mostly, we saw her wearing that uniform.
Now at the end of the game, she’s walking to her locker room, minding her own business, and this sweet little old man looks at me and comments, “I guess she likes that uniform.” “Uh I guess so” was all I could say, not really feeling like having a conversation, and feeling uncomfortable already. I looked at the floor, crossed my arms, leaned away, sent all of the antisocial nonverbal cues I could muster, and yet still he continued – “I’m glad my granddaughter doesn’t dress like that.” He’s staring me down, wants a response of some kind. “Umm well I’m pretty sure it’s a uniform” I respond, trying not to be rude, just trying to get out of this awkward conversation. Of course he keeps talking. “Seems to me that if a girl wears basically nothing, like that one is, She’s just asking for some boy to knock her down and rape her. Wouldn’t even be his fault – walking around dressed like that.”
This is the part where I wish I was Elizabeth Cady Stanton. I wish I was, Gloria Steinem, or Bell hooks, or any other of the gutsy gumption filled women I look up to, but in this moment I am not, in this moment I look at the floor and feel the tips of my ears turn red. “No comment huh?” I look at him, and he’s smiling. I manage to make my mouth move, and squeak out “I think that’s a bit harsh.” Without looking at him, I scuffle away.
As I leave I am shaking with anger, with frustration, with compassion for the cheerleader, but mostly I’m filled with shame. I’m ashamed that a comment like that can shake me and fill me with fear. I’m ashamed that I let myself be silenced. I’m ashamed that I, the loudmouthed self avowed, in your face, Feminist, couldn’t find my voice. I’m the child of a pastor and a lawyer. I was born to be opinionated, and yet in the face of blatant sexism, I swallowed my voice.
I can’t get it out of my head – I can’t stop thinking of that girl, God’s beautiful creation, spilling out of her cheerleading uniform. I can’t stop thinking that this grandfather has a son, and a grandson, and from his example, they are learning that when a girl dresses “like that” she loses her right to say no. They learn that a girl’s body is an object, to be casually picked apart in conversation, they learn that there is nothing deeper, nothing pure or true or good about this girl because she’s ” just a slut”. She’s asking for it, dressed like that.
It filled me with fear because I have been that girl. If I put on that cheerleading uniform, I would look “indecent” to this man. Because nearly every girl and every woman has felt that at one time or another. It filled me with fear because this man was justifying rape while looking right at me, and what separated her from me was that for all appearances sake, I am a “good girl”- and her “badness”, her open sexuality made her inhuman, made her unworthy of respect, or of feelings, or emotion.
Feminists call this slut shaming, teaching that society views women who do not fear their bodies, and their sexuality, as inherently worthless, dumb and dirty. That they are “bad girls” and therefore deserving of rape and violence, because after all “they asked for it.”
This is a lot of rambling, about a 45 second conversation, but I thought you should know, that this is why I fight. This is why I don’t laugh at rape jokes, this is why I read feminist literature and refuse to back down.
Because 1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime (to understand this , pick 3 women in your life and try to pick one.)
Because sweet old grandfathers instill in their sons and grandsons (intentionally or unintentionally) the common “boys will be boys”mentality that they have no responsibility to control themselves because a woman in a short skirt is no longer a person, but merely a sexual object.
Because a 45 second conversation can make me feel afraid and ashamed when I have done nothing wrong.
I am a feminist because this is not ok.
I am a feminist because this can be changed.
interested? check out In Defense of Sex Workers
Although in such a situation I disagree that it is the woman’s fault, I also agree with the guy that people that dress like her are going to be attacked more often than those that do not.
The guy is saying that its okay because she’s dressing like that. He’s including an opinion rather than stating a dubious “fact”.
Eddie that doesn’t justify anything. Every person should have the ability to wear whatever they want without having to fear for their safety.
Eddie, do you have a source for this?
Eddie, rape is about power and control. It is not about sexual attraction. There is no evidence that how a woman dresses makes her more or less susceptible to rape. In fact, all of the evidence found in studies done with sex offenders who commit sexual assault against strangers indicates that they were looking for women (and men) they could easily attack due to circumstance. They did not look at what their victims were wearing.
When I was raped by a stranger, I was wearing cargo pants, sneakers, two shirts, and a sweatshirt. I was in a well-populated public place.
Further, the woman in question is a cheerleader wearing a cheerleading uniform. The only choice she made in her attire was to wear the uniform of her team or not.
You’re right, Eddie; women who are dressed like that are more likely to be attacked, because their rapists know that they are far more likely to get away with the crime, because society will blame the victim.
However, if you feel the answer to that is for women to continue to restrict their freedoms and continue to be raped in ‘sympathetic’ situations, I’m afraid we vastly disagree on the effectiveness or human decency of that.
Not true. Statistics show that women in baggy clothes are raped most often because their clothes allow for easy access. It’s misconceptions like these that add to our ever-prevelent rape culture.
I feel like most guys dont understand the major difference between getting hit on more often and actual non consensual sexual behavior. If you dress like that, guys will look at you more often, you will get hit on more often, but that doesn’t in any way allow one to believe it’s a woman’s fault for getting raped.
Girls don’t get raped because they aren’t wearing enough clothes.
Girls get raped because there are a few really sick guys who find an opportune moment when a girl is alone and defenseless to attack them without warning. I highly doubt that they choose their target based on the amount of clothes she has on.
Totally agree with this. ^
And because men like the grandfather in this post and Eddie perpetuate the idea that men who commit rape are often justified in doing so.
I am not saying that that justifies it or has a huge role to play in it. I am just saying that it probably doesn’t help.
Actually statistically speaking the percentage of rapes does not increase with regard to the style of clothing the victim is wearing at the time of her attack. So you are wrong.
Blaming a victim for a crime committed against them is ALWAYS wrong. You don’t blame someone who is killed on their behavior before the murder, and you don’t blame a rape victim for being raped.
However, I would agree with Eddie to a certain degree. As a practical matter, you don’t want to flash cash when you are in a “worse” side of town. You shouldn’t try and be a hero when armed individuals are holding up a convenience store without realizing you might die. Along the same line of thought, what you wear does impact the likelihood of an assault. Should it? No, it shouldn’t. Does it? I would say it does. Is it the girls fault? Of course not, it is the conscious decision of the perp. However, practical wisdom can be utilized to prevent crime from happening: don’t carry around a Prada bag in a bad neighborhood, and don’t walk down back alleys at 2 am wearing your clubbing outfit. Wear what you want, but stay out of harms way. Or watch what you wear and go where you please. We live in a world with crime, so minimizing your risk is an important thought.
Regardless, it is always wrong to “slut shame” and blame the victim for the crime. But practical wisdom is a handy little thing.
Exactly. I mean, if you go into a part of town that you know that there is a high robbery rate in, don’t be suprised when you get robbed.
And, by extension, if you are a woman and you live in a society in which one in three women will be raped for no reason other than their gender, don’t be surprised when you get raped?
Is that what you’re saying?
I think there’s a bit of a conundrum here. Everyone should be able to wear what they want and go where they want when they want. Key word? Should. Reality is different.
Rape is never the woman’s fault. And a woman wearing a skimpy outfit is not asking to be raped, especially since, by definition, if she’s asking for it, it’s not rape. Yet…
If I walk through a crime infested area by myself at 2 am and I get mugged or shot, what are you going to say? Probably something like, “She could’ve made better choices.” Why is it any different if I’m raped? It’s still not my fault, but I could’ve made better choices to avoid its occurrence.
I only read this because of the picture…
so, if i go into a bad part of town and wear a really nice watch, it’s MY fault that the watch was stolen? this is called victim blaming and it’s awful. i understand what you’re attempting to articulate, but couldn’t disagree more.
instead of teaching women (and men) how NOT to get raped, i think the far more obvious and easier solution is to teach men (and women) to NOT RAPE. this seems so obvious to me.
we teach young men not to steal, not to bully, not to push, not to call other people names, but we never teach them to NOT rape, NOT molest, NOT make inappropriate and unwanted sexual comments. we put all those actions/thought patterns under the column “boys will be boys”, and call it a day.
in the same way that “men are wired for sex and if girls don’t want that kind of attention, then they shouldn’t dress like sluts”, women are “wired for security, a home and resources”. but no one would say “girls will be girls” if i decided to break into a rich man’s house eat all of his food, and take all of his money and live there permanently.
so to say “boys will be boys” is bullsh*t because it implies that men aren’t capable of managing their own biological urges. as a woman, my biological urge is to find a rich guy who can provide me a secure home life and protection, but you better believe that no jury would let me get away with saying “oh, girls will be girls” if i broke into his house and refused to leave.
Easier? You think that it is easier to change the mentality and paradigm of the mentally ill than to ask people to use common sense to make themselves less of a target for the mentally ill?
Also, just go through this one more time.
we teach young men not to steal, not to bully, not to push, not to call other people names, but we never teach them to NOT rape, NOT molest, NOT make inappropriate and unwanted sexual comments. we put all those actions/thought patterns under the column “boys will be boys”, and call it a day.
What? I am going to assume you are a female and therefore don’t know what “boys” learn, but I will tell you this. I am a male and I was taught that ALL those things are wrong, including rape and unwelcome sexual comments. So please, stop demonizing all men. Your generalizations are just as unwelcome as the old man’s idea that the rapist wouldn’t be to blame.
Stacy, I agree with the world you want, but it is not the world we have. You should be able to be safe, no matter what, but it is not the case. I’m sure when you go to a party, you are not going to accept a drink from a stranger, or leave your drink out when you go to the bathroom. Women practice this all the time. Practicing what you should be able to do is not worth the reality of what is going to happen. I don’t think that there is any right of anyone to take away someones free choice, but I also caution women to avoid being exploited and conditioned into self objectification under a false claim that this is feminism. Girls gone wild isn’t feminism, it is objectification. Women having their feminist right to display their bodies exploited.
judging by your name, you are a man. as long as you stay out of prison you have a VERY slim chance of being raped. i’m a little annoyed that you’re telling women how they should behave to avoid getting raped. the problem is, men are allowed to move about the world freely, they can be out at all hours wearing whatever they want. sure, there are a lot of bad things that could happen to men, they could get robbed, or shot, or hit by a car. but those things happen to women too, none of those things would happen to men BECAUSE of their gender. rapists HATE women, that is the only reason they rape, and that is infuriating in a way you could never possibly understand. you can’t tell women they should stay out of public places at certain times or to not wear certain kinds of clothing. the public sphere is not a men-only zone. women can and should go wherever they want, do whatever they want, and wear whatever they want. we cannot schedule our lives around the possibility of getting raped. we have every right to go about our daily lives however we please without getting violently assaulted.
No, it is not your fault if the watch gets stolen, but it also would not have gotten stolen if you had not gone there. It is kind of dumb to go to a place where you know there is a high risk of trouble and then complaining when something happens. Should it have happened? Absolutely not, but it was preventable. It is not victim blaming, it is common sense.
I agree that we should put more emphasis on teaching people not to doing those things, but once again, common sense must prevail. If you bring your car into a neighborhood that is known for having a lot of car thefts, it is probably not the greatest idea to bring your car there.
I don’t believe in “boys will be boys” and “girls will be girls.” People who assault other people should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but it also falls on the individual to take preventative measures.
What preventative measures do you make to ensure you don’t get attacked?
is it anything like this?
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/8kVcX5
what about this?
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2HI7Wb/latestdata.blogspot.com/2006/10/through-rapists-eyes.html/ — To take ‘preventative measures’ do you mean that all women who don’t want to be raped should cut their hair short, and not wear anything like sweats, or pay any attention to our phones while out?
Eddie, we’re not talking robbery here. Robbery and sexual attacks are hardly the same thing (if you need to be reminded: one is the unlawful and forceful removal of goods such as a wallet or an ipod. the other is the forceful, unlawful, and intrusive act on, and against, women’s sexual, physical, emotional, and mental well-being). Most women do take preventative measures: going to the restroom in buddy systems, crossing to the other side of the road to avoid walking past a group of men (sometimes even if it’s just one man or two), carrying their umbrella, planning routes by the amount of street light, avoiding eye contact with any men who walk past, carrying orange rape whistles, etc… In the first article, the woman brings a bag of dog shit. Among other measures, I’ve cut my hair shorter, my step-sister has a rape whistle, and none of my girlfriends go to a public toilet alone; yet, if we are in the company of male friends (or father’s–for when we were young teen girls), we get teased about how women cannot do anything alone and how we must be going in to powder our noses or fix our hair.
Another tip: women who are victims of an attack do not usually go gallivanting around the streets at night. Some of us are coming back from work, and cannot avoid coming home late in the evening. Should we be wary of every doorway, shrub, or alley that an attacker could high in or behind? What if we don’t walk, but take a properly lit bus? What if our attacker follows us off the bus, and because women are not all psychics or neurotic, we didn’t perceive him to be a threat when he was sitting just behind us.
In all honesty, Eddie, what preventative measures do you take to ensure you are not sexually attacked?
You are paranoid.
Yes, you have to think about all those things.
Yes, those are all possibilities.
Yes, one day ANY OF THOSE THINGS MIGHT HAPPEN.
The odds however, are remote. And the more vigilant you are, the less likely those situations become. If you watch where you go, who you are near, who is coming, who is going, if you are constantly aware of your surroundings, you will be safer. I understand that this is a mean view of the world, but it is reality. There are crazy people in the world, not many, but enough to be a concern.
And one other thing. Get off your high horse. Men can be sexually attacked too. And if you don’t want to believe that, how about simply agreeing that men can be attacked. I don’t want to have to think every time that I come home, “I wonder if there is going to be someone in my apartment,” or, “I wonder if I can walk up to the gas station and get a drink without running into a lunatic. But its reality, adn we all deal with it.
Your points are excellent and in a pre-reply of sorts to the person that is going back and forth with you i ask, what about the fact that most rapes are committed by people we know and trust?
theres the whole “i woudlnt wear a rolex in the bad part of town” argument but what about “i woudlnt wear my rolex in my own home, with my legal spouse who has sworn to love me until death do us part”?
stranger rape happens so much less then assault by someone the victim knows. the whole argument about wearing the wrong thing in the wrong part of town gets thrown out the window. i SHOULD be able to go to bed at the same time as my spouse without worrying about him raping me in my sleep. i SHOULD be able to walk around naked in my own bedroom without worrying about igniting the desire he chooses not to control. i SHOULD be able to make out with my own spouse on the couch and not feel obligated to “put out” when we go to bed later that night.
rape has nothing to do with what im wearing or how long my hair is. its about power and control. period.
@Valpers The fact that men can also be attacked should not be used as a reason to stop discussion on how to prevent women from being attacked. There is no paranoia in trying to change culture so that everyone is safer.
I am not trying to stop a discussion on how to stop women from being attacked. I am trying to get that discussion started. Currently, the discussion seems to be sexism. And that is not the same as trying to stop women from being attacked.
There are 2 ways that I see on how to stop women from being attacked.
A. The culture changes and the mentally ill are no longer a part of society. Men are still taught as boys to be nice and respect women and that no means no. And perhaps some reprogramming socially as to what men and boys find to be humorous.
B. Women guard themselves.
Now, which would I prefer. A, hands down. Its a great concept. But, there are variables in there that can not be changed. B however is completely inside the bounds of what we can control. Should we therefore give up on A? No, but if you are going to refuse to admit that the way people act and display themselves is up to them and can have effects on other members of society, then you aren’t going to have a discussion. You are going to limit yourself to only complaining about one half of the solution set.
Also, are you the author of the article?
There is no high horse. Attacks on women are just a bigger problem, and that is why women do take more precautions than men. The point is, men don’t take the same precautions that women do.
Also, you say that I’m being paranoid? Then where is the line between paranoia and vigilance? The fact that I’m addressing these precautions in a debate about rape. These aren’t precautions that only I take, but something many other women take as well. In my previous comment I had forgotten to point out how some women enter/exit the car from the passenger side in parking lots if there is a car with a man in it, or a van, on their driver’s side; and we’re advised to do it even. As Annie said, 1 in 3 women get raped throughout their lifetime. In my honest opinion, women who do take these precautions are being vigilant.
I think instead you’re taking my argument as an attack on men, when instead I’m trying to take the “women have to be careful and use common sense, instead of walking around in skimpy clothing in dim areas” and argue against that. The point is all types of women are attacked, not just the party goers. And it’s not just rape– we get all kinds of unwanted attention. I get catcalled by groups of men at bus stops when I’m walking home from work; it’s scary. It’s not as simple as ‘use common sense.’ In addition, I made no attack on the opposite sex; hence, I was not being sexist.
The point of the article is how society has almost seemingly accepted rape as something that happens to women who don’t act respectable; hence the “Seems to me that if a girl wears basically nothing, like that one is, She’s just asking for some boy to knock her down and rape her. Wouldn’t even be his fault – walking around dressed like that.” While I’m adding that, in reality, many women are vigilant to avoid situations or environments that could lead to rape. In the meantime, if a woman is raped the type of clothes they were wearing or behavior they were getting up to is questioned. In essence, to be sure that she had not brought it upon herself. As it stands, if a rape is reported, there is only half the chance the rapist will be arrested.
Also, it’s more likely that a woman will be raped within a mile of her home, and by someone she knows, anyways.
The mentality behind rape is that ‘dressing/acting inappropriately’ and sexual attacks are linked. Society finds it more acceptable if there is some ‘wrong doing’ on behalf of the raped person. Society is widely under the impression that things can’t change, and that ‘boys will be boys,’ which is wildly untrue. You could go around the world, and ideas about gender roles, and sexual values/taboos vary greatly, and they’re still changing.
The thing that you and Eddie seem to be missing is that dressing conservatively does not protect women from sexual assault. If it were that easy, then maybe that would be worth including that in the conversation. Part of what Stephanie is saying is that because of the sheer frequency of rape and sexual assault, women often live as though they are under the constant threat of sexual violence. Given the outrageous measures we are routinely encouraged to take to avoid sexual assault, we find it preposterous and insulting that you suggest that rape might be prevented through precautions taken by potential victims.
I made no attack on the opposite sex; hence, I was not being sexist.
Society is widely under the impression that things can’t change, and that ‘boys will be boys,
You seem to be saying here that society is doing something to promote sexual misconduct for men by not changing itself. And, you are also being sexist because you are limiting your arguments to simply “boys will be boys” and not expanding it to “people will be people.” There are many examples of things that women do that men disapprove of and yet still allow and sweep under the rug under the heading of, “Girls are just weird” or, “Women!” or any other statement to indicate a lack of understanding on our part of why women do certain things. Stereotypical examples, shoe shopping, doing make up while driving, etc etc. Admittedly, they don’t have the same dangerous implications that assault has, but the society we live in does not condone assault. Yes, some old, out-of-touch-with-reality geriatric patients might think that sexual misconduct can be forgiven under the proper circumstances, but outside those few, it is considered an unspeakable horror. Still, the point is that sexism exists on both sides of this coin, and the mentality that boys will be boys is no more prevalent or damaging than saying that women are irrational. They are both weak excuses made by people too lazy to try and understand the other inhabitants of the world. And until we, as a society, become willing to drop all pretenses that we are both,
A. Responsible for our own actions as individuals
and,
B. Responsible for each others well being as members of the same society
we won’t see a decline in the quantity of people who use these excuses, even as terribly sexist as they are.
And for the record, I don’t have much of a problem with the main article. I think it is well written, even though it does make the cheerleader out to be someone who is either vapid and doesn’t understand that how she dresses and carries herself causes her to be an object of desire (yes, I know that is still not an excuse for any attacks on her) or she is simply begging for the attention she knows she can get from “spilling out of her cheer leading uniform,” which is still not a smart idea considering that the world we all live in does have ridiculous pervs who will attempt to force themselves on her. The article makes a strong point that the old man’s comment at the end was and is dead wrong.
Your experience is merely an indication of how far we have to go. Often such things take generations to die off. It was 100 years between the Civil War and the segregation reforms of the sixties after all (and even longer before it had any real meaning). One thing that I think is an important step is for men to become feminists. I consider myself to be one of those men. It’s awkward at times when some dude will make a wink, wink sexist comment and I have to tear off the cloak and expose it. But true equality still needs to be nurtured. I think it’s happening but the glass ceiling is still a bit opaque.
Get your hammers.
PS. Thanks for including our website in your blogroll.
Also, Stephanie, please explain how this makes sense:
There is no high horse. Attacks on women are just a bigger problem, and that is why women do take more precautions than men.
The second sentence combined with the first sentence makes you either hypocritical or deranged. The high horse you are on is that attacks on women being a bigger problem. Added to the fact that what you are really saying is that attacks on women by men is a bigger problem and that the reason for these attacks is society not “training” its male population better.
So there you see, the horse is standing there in all its majestic animal glory. Deny its existence if you wish, but until you step off it you won’t be able to see all the other things it is standing on…
First of all, if you were really fussed about this, it would not take two responses to the same comment to address this.
If you look at statistics, 1 in 6 American women are raped vs. 1 in 33 men are raped. Yes, it is a bigger problem for women then it is for men. There is nothing sexist in what I’m saying, there is not hypocritical, or deranged in what I’m saying. Women are raped more frequently than men, hence it’s a bigger problem. Men and women can experience it, they both can experience trauma, and they both are at risk from an STD, but women need to worry about impregnation. If you are really arsed about male sexual attacks, then you do the research, you write the article, and then we can debate that.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
Also, I never used the word ‘train’ particularly because it has no place for what I was suggesting. I’m suggesting that families raise their children without discouraging boys from something like playing with their sisters dolls, or encouraging girls to be quiet or ‘lady like.’ Society expects men to act a certain way. Is it sexist to learn that in a Men’s studies class?
I agree with Mr. Universe that men should become feminist. Feminism is about equality for both genders, and male feminists reflect that.
And with your first comment to me,
And, you are also being sexist because you are limiting your arguments to simply “boys will be boys” and not expanding it to “people will be people.”
I agree ‘people will be people;’ however you either don’t understand what I’m writing or you’re skimming so you can get to the ‘good part’ ( your response) because in writing ‘boys will be boys’ I’m referring to a generalized view society has on man’s behalf (<— societies view, in my opinion, not my view) and I do make that clear in my response. I'd prefer it if 'people will be people' were the expression more commonly used. However, this article is about rape on women by men. As such, the discuss is about rape on women by men. Thus, my argument is going to be relevant to sexual attacks on women by men. If 'people will be people' is relevant to that argument, then I would expand it to that; but society does not hold that view and so it would be irrelevant to expand it to that. There is a pretty distinct line between men and women in the US (do I have to add that this is a societal problem?)
"Yes, some old, out-of-touch-with-reality geriatric patients might think that sexual misconduct can be forgiven under the proper circumstances, but outside those few, it is considered an unspeakable horror"
The point is, it's not. Look at politicians. Herman Cain convicted of rape himself, and wants to make abortion illegal in all circumstances. A politician of London's British National Party said that spousal rape is like 'being force-fed chocolate cake.' Rape of women soldiers in the military, by co-workers is more likely than rape or death by the enemy. In 2010, an amendment designed to allow women to report a sexual attack while employed by a defense contractor, was voted down. Boehner wants women to pay for their rape kits, affecting women in poor rural, and urban city areas.
I'm not bashing men here. I'm addressing an inherently masculine society, which ignores women's sexual right and rights to equality.
The plebrom is that this story is turning into racism at the end. We should not let it as U.S.A considers us a very racist country already.
Annie, i agree with you. We will continue to fight!
this isn’t a big issue to me, personally, because most people don’t actually see it the same way as that old man. rape isn’t even a social problem in my opinion, it is the problem of individual deranged men. There are almost zero messages in society legitimizing rape
I fully agree that women are disrespected in the way they themselves and their bodies are talked about by most men…but the girls wearing skin tight skirts and tops or blouses that are 5 sizes too small, they have got to be fully aware of what kind of attention they are going to attract with those kinds of clothes. it seems only fair that they accept some responsibility of that action. Not in any way saying it is completely their fault but partway-yes it is.
The majority of rape cases do not take place because a woman is wearing hardly any clothing. Most rapists grab women who are wearing something baggy (which is easy to remove or cut off), with long hair or in a pony tail (easy to grab), and usually within a mile of the victims home (also suggesting that the rapist is at least an acquaintance to the victim). In the case of rape on women by men, it isn’t usually the case that a man sees a woman and is driven so mad with desire that he can’t control himself. Rapists are predators; they seek out their pray, and they figure out the easiest way to do that.
The problem is that whenever we think of women who are raped, we assume they were wearing nothing. I do fully understand that there are women who go out and they really should put on an extra 5 layers of clothing. Yet, we try to look at rape from a sexual stand point, and think ‘if she acted or looked in any way sexual, it may cause a man to attack her.” First of all, women do not have to act sexually towards a man for rape to occur, nor does she have to dress sexually. For example, rape on pre-pubescent or pubescent young girls. I know you’re saying ‘that’s different. it’s on a child’ but it’s not different. Not even to the FBI. By their new definition, rape is rape no matter the gender, age, orifice, or apparatus used to violate that orifice.
20 refugees in Sweden raped a 11 year old girl in a bath house. Essentially, a public pool. She was in a group of her friends for a birthday party and raped by 20 men who arrived after the party began. So clearly the little girl was in a bathing suit. We don’t know what her behavior was, but are we going to assume it was sexual because she was raped? The men made all the girls in the party take off their clothing. So I hardly think that sexual behavior is the case. In Brazilian Big Brother, one of the housemates was raped after she passed out by another housemate. He went to her room and violated her while she was in her own room and in her own bed. Teachers are raped in their own classrooms after school.
Basically, what I’m trying to say is, when people talk about rape they want to talk about the women who maybe shouldn’t wear some things quite so tight, or should know better. Yet, it is quite insulting to the majority of women who are raped when they aren’t dressed inappropriately. Unless we want to start saying that girls of the pubescent age (and older) shouldn’t wear bathing suits, that the woman in big brother can’t ever drink, and should probably stay awake all night, and that teachers shouldn’t teach male students (even at a middle school level), then we really need to address the way society looks at rape.
Or we could examine The War of Bosnia-Herzogovina. In a nutshell, Serbian forces captured muslims and croatian catholic women and forced them into rape camps with the intent of impregnating them with ‘Chetnik babies’ who will be raised serbian and then fight serbian wars. The camps were opened and meant to have closed within 92, but evidence shows they operated into 96. The relevant part here is that these women were so afraid to say what happened to them because their families and communities would think that the raped victims were lying or exaggerating or that the girls must have brought it upon themselves, by asking for it in some way (including clothing choice); they would be exiled from their families; alienated by their community; and in some cases killed by their husbands. The Rapists weren’t held accountable.
These cases all seem extreme, but they are real cases of rape. These women did not have to act in a sexual nature. nor did they concede or bring it upon themselves. Even in one of the most extreme cases, (war of bosnia-herzegovina) communities and families couldn’t help but question the women’s behavior. America certainly isn’t an Eastern European country but it is akin to that example because society does question the women and what they were doing or how they were dressed, and only 6% of rapists are only ever convicted.
Instead of saying “if a woman will dress inappropriately (assuming that she dressed inappropriately because she had been raped), then she should take some part of the blame,” all rapists should be held 100% accountable. Rapists do function within normal society.. they may be the ‘select deranged’ but they know how to function within normal society, and if they can do that then they can be held 100% accountable.
Yeah, well…. no. The story about 20 refugees raping… is fictional propaganda from nazi/racist blogs and media.
What happened was serious, but completely different. According to the police:
One, noone was raped.
Two: three girls 11 and 12 yrs old were grabbed (touched on their back, legs and butts) and harassed by 5-7 boys (17 yrs old). Friends of the harassers formed a wall to keep the girls friends from helping them.
The thing that you and Eddie seem to be missing is that dressing conservatively does not protect women from sexual assault. If it were that easy, then maybe that would be worth including that in the conversation. Part of what Stephanie is saying is that because of the sheer frequency of rape and sexual assault, women often live as though they are under the constant threat of sexual violence. Given the outrageous measures we are routinely encouraged to take to avoid sexual assault, we find it preposterous and insulting that you suggest that rape might be prevented through precautions taken by potential victims.
No, I get the part quite well. I understand that the attire the women wear doesn’t play a significant roll in their risk for sexual assault. That’s also why I think that the argument that society is blaming women for getting raped is a crock of turd. Society has no control over someone getting raped. It’s not SOCIETY that assaults women, its mentally ill people.
I find it preposterous that YOU take offense to someone telling you and the rest of the world, “Hey, its not such a safe place, be on guard.” If you don’t want to hear that, fine. But don’t start getting uppity because someone has the balls to tell you that there IS danger in the world for ALL people.
And if you want to argue whether precautions against crimes work, just look at any other crime statistic and see how when preventative measures were taken the incidence of that crime fell.
I don’t find it much of a problem that people tell women to be careful (or men, for that matter). I just think the insulting bit is when an incidence of rape on women by a man has occurred and the nature of discussion turns into all the things a woman could have done to prevent it, or somehow taking some part of the blame, or even focusing on the sexual nature of the victim. It seems more emphasis is placed on cause and effect: “she didn’t take some sort of precaution when she should have,” hence the rape.
I’m not arguing with you. For the most part I agree with you. I’m just adding a bit about how after an incident occurs, a woman’s measures to ‘precaution’ (in the terms of how she is dressed) is questioned, and that specifically would be insulting. I don’t entirely agree with the last paragraph though. There is no specific reason for the fall of national crime rate in ’89, but one economist suggests legalization of abortion is the cause (<—- an argument for another day, just putting it out there). Also, certain measures increase your likelihood for burglary, such as installing security cameras; statistically speaking, there is no evidence that it prevents crime Also, installing them in your home tempts burglars to break in, to see why exactly you have installed one in the first place, or what you're trying to hide.
Maybe you shouldn’t focus your attention on each other, and just agree to this:
Rape is wrong. And then direct all you’re energy to being good people and help each other out..
Also, I notice that the guys (or I presume they are) keep saying that rape is commited by the mentally ill. I don’t think that is the case.. I mean, if one in 3 women is going to be sexually assaulted, and not every rapist is a serial rapist, then at least one in 5 men (or any other really high number) would have to be mentally ill. I don’t think that is the case. So don’t just blame the menatally ill and say, there is something wrong with those rapists. It makes it seem like you’re denying that there’s something wrong with society, because the mentally ill have always been around and alway will. No, rapists are normal men! Men who have jobs and possibly a family. You can’t identify a rapist by looking at them or even testing their mental stability. The reason it happens, is because, like the author said, this is what they are tought. It makes me sick.
(And this is not sexist, it’s math+facts)
There needs to be a distinction made here. What incidents of rape are we discussing? I understood from the original article that this was a discussion about anonymous rape – although of course, husbands can indeed rape their wives, wives their husbands, and boyfriends rape their girlfriends, etc.
You need to get your statistics straight, and also distinguish the types of relationships in which rapes occur. We also need to talk about where all this rape is happening. Do the statistics of 1 in 3 women apply to the US, or the world? Do these statistics also include tribal women who undergo rape as a marriage ritual in their cultures? That’s an entirely different ballpark, and requires a bio/psycho/social approach.
It is known that there is a higher occurrence of mental, physical, emotional and sexual abuse amongst people who know each other than amongst strangers. I would venture to say that people who are known abusers of their families or spouses do have mental illnesses. There is something wrong with anyone who is a serial rapist. In terms of men who rape on singular occasions – if we’re including date rape, that’s a really murky area.
I don’t agree with your argument. Except for in South Africa and tribal culture, I cannot think of any culture that teaches rape is okay.
@xanaxnation
I completely agree with you, and I do address those points at later dates within the post. I’m not nearly as concise as I would like to be sometimes; but I think your examples concerning the rolex is a great way of putting rape into perspective.
People had made mention of objectification of women based on what they wear earlier in this thread. I know people and have seen people here express an interest in women (and men for that matter) being able to wear whatever they want without being viewed as a sexual object. I think one of the main problems with that line of thinking is that there are times when members of both sexes want to display themselves sexually. By simply getting rid of a “sexuality signal,” we’re forgetting about one of the most basic signals we can send.
And, more importantly, the clothes we choose to wear say something about who we are. While this can be often times be bad, there are real societal advantages to this. For example, cues based on clothing are really easy: a police officer doesn’t have to explain that he or she is a police officer every time they interact with someone, you can meet someone at a party who’s wearing a t-shirt of a band you like and instantly have something to talk about. Social cues are an important part of living in a society. They are also a two-way street. If one doesn’t want to be viewed sexually, one shouldn’t wear what society deems sexual attire. Also, if one is viewing someone sexually, one should think about whether or not its appropriate to do so. (The cheerleader has no choice in her uniform, but a girl dressed in similar clothing a night club has significantly more choices.) I think
I just wanted to make a point about sexual objectification in general. I know that, by definition, there can be no social cue for “rape me” because rape is unsolicited.
Of course it is never okay for a woman (or a man) to be sexually assaulted. If a hypothetical female in her early 20s goes to a dangerous neighborhood in a cheerleading uniform all alone, unprotected, it’s not her fault if she happens to be assaulted. But that does NOT mean this hypothetical woman ISN’T STUPID. i encourage all who read this comment to look at Camille Paglia’s collected essays. I am not endorsing her as the goddess of all feminism, nor do I even agree with much of what she has to say – but her ideas and opinions certainly make you think about the ways feminism can be disempowering.
I am not going to talk about men here very much. I would like to state that i think men can be very loving, sensitive human beings who are protective, kind and nonviolent. Not all men rape – some do. Not all men are sexually aggressive towards women – some are. In turn, not all women are loving and kind – and not all women are victims. Women are not unknown to be sexually aggressive. Women can be charged with rape, murder, sexual assault, molestation and torture – and women tend to be much more vicious in violent assaults than men. (Female serial killers often use poison, knives, etc. on people they know and love who become their victims over long periods of suffering. Male serial killers are often disconnected from their victims – many use guns. Examples.)
Rape is indeed a distinct experience – it is not like being robbed, getting beaten up, or being tortured in various ways. Historically, many men and women have had experiences of rape. It is one of the most invasive violations on the human body possible. (and yet, many women and men have survived rape experiences, and continue to live their lives, sometimes being broken but sometimes being stronger people.)
Rape may be a horrible thing to endure, but you cannot compare it on a whole to other kinds of assault. There have been many mildly traumatising rapes committed by men. There have also been many highly traumatising violent acts committed by women. We are, as a species, at odds collectively with ourselves. Why do we hurt others? Why do we rape?
If some men think that the way women dress is the cause for sexual assault, that tells us a couple of things. 1- the men who have these opinions have never been sexually violated, and the women in their lives likely haven’t been either. 2- the male sexual drive is powerful enough that men can ignore common human decency in favor of such an opinion. 3- most of these men are likely not rapists themselves, and have a very different concept of ‘rape’ when they talk about women ‘asking for it’. it has been proven in many scientific studies that men don’t rape women just because they dress in revealing clothing. In fact, a lot of the time, rape is NOT about sex at all – it’s about power and control. That’s why male-on-male rape is so common in prisons – it’s a form of domination, and rarely has anything to do with sexual lust (which one COULD associate with skimpy dress).
Male rapists are often victims themselves. Many men who rape have experienced childhood abuse and often molestation by parental figures or other adults in their lives. It is a vicious cycle of invasive sexual assault that needs to end. But we must go to the source of the problem, and find ways to understand things that hurt us. Instead of telling rapists it is wrong to rape (which would be redundant and useless), we need to understand the psychology of the mind of a rapist. We need to know why these disorderly impulses exist, and how to PREVENT them from occurring. We DO need to teach our children (especially boys) about being respectful about each others’ sexuality. But the thing is, people don’t usually need to learn How Not To Rape, because if you grow up with good influences and in a basically stable environment, most people turn out morally/ethically okay, and can choose for themselves what is right or wrong.
When our society gets to the point where we need to teach our children why it is bad to rape each other, we are not looking at the source of that problem.
I didn’t read all the comments, but I read most.
so according to some of these guys.. If they’re wearing swimming trunks and a perverted man goes up to them and puts their penis into the man wearing swimming trunk’s asshole.. then it’s okay because he deserved it because he was wearing provocative clothing.
Just to change it up a little bit. Everyone’s a victim, a rapist is a rapist because they (man or woman) is a sick fuck.
Loved reading this! By the way I dress with cut up band shirts that show my chest and back and tight pants with holes in them sometimes, and I like it, I go like that wherever I go, it doesn’t matter if its a different neighborhood, I don’t care, I should be able to wear whatever I want without the worry of me getting raped, yeah I see perverts looking at me sometimes, not because of that I’m gonna change, instead those people should change the way they look at me, I’m human, not an object!
Not only is this man being harsh and most likely projecting his ignorant views on his grandchildren etc., but I think it is also important to note on the ‘uniform’ that this girl has to wear. It is also sad that our society has become so numb to the flashy cheer leading uniforms that these women have to wear. I see them on television or wherever they may be wearing little to nothing, cheering their team on. In a way, as females, we have let others think of women as objects because of uniforms like this. It’s not okay. So until we as females Stand up for ourselves and not think of ourselves as objects, maybe well stop thinking that skimpy uniforms are okay to wear.
Also, let me clear this up by saying that yes, it is her decision to wear whatever she wants to wear, however skimpy, but that absolutely does not give any man the right to think that rape is okay, or that her outfit puts a target on her.
We need to be aware that this patriarchal system is set up to use our best intentions against us. It IS true that the man made a sexist statement and took all of the responsibility off of men and pre-emptively placed blame on the cheerleader for whatever might happen to her. However, we are also playing into patriarchy’s manupulations when we defend sexist ideals and traditions as “rights” and “empowerment.”